This is the first transcription of the podcast and we will have the episodes from this one onwards on here as a transcription, to ensure accessability of our content!
You can click here to listen to this episode, perhaps whilst you read along or instead of reading it all!
Kirsty Taylor 0:06
Hello, and welcome back to Fancy A Blether? podcast. I'm your host, Kirsty Taylor. And just a quick housekeeping thing before I welcome our guest for this week, the website should be up on Sunday. So stay tuned on our Instagram @fancyablether to check that out on Sunday. And now I'm going to welcome Marion Jochmans I always feel like I mess up your last name.
Marion Jochmans 0:31
That was correct, Jochmans, Jochmans, I mean, it's dutch.
Kirsty Taylor 0:36
I just remember that tutorial where you were like, well we were wine drunk.
Marion Jochmans 0:41
Yeah, that was hilarious. I think I went on for so long to try to explain to him how to say my first name actually, which was just a mess.
Kirsty Taylor 0:50
Yeah, I was kicking you under the table. I was like Marion, shut up. So basically, em for those of you listening that don't know Marion and I we met at, well I suppose we met through Facebook. Technically.
Marion Jochmans 1:03
Yeah, yeah, no, we did for sure.
Kirsty Taylor 1:07
We like met on a, I don't even know what it was. It was like a group, a Facebook group or something. And then
Marion Jochmans 1:15
just for like, future students at Napier, just to, like, meet the people that are going to be on your course.
Kirsty Taylor 1:23
Yeah, it was so weird. And then we just, of course, my idea. We played 20 questions we find out we had a lot in common. We're like, Oh, we have all this. Every answer was like the same.
Marion Jochmans 1:34
Kirsty Taylor 1:36
Yeah. And then that tutorial we were talking about was like our first tutorial where we went to a little place called Bia Bistro in Edinburgh. And one of our course mates bought us wine before our first tutorial at uni and I don't think we even ate. No, I think I had a salad.
Marion Jochmans 1:57
I just had like two glasses of wine. And I was tipsy
A great start to university
Kirsty Taylor 2:03
It was, I think it was red wine too though
Marion Jochmans 2:05
it was red wine.
Kirsty Taylor 2:07
Yeah, it's stronger. Yeah, I really think red wine has more of an impact than white.
Marion Jochmans 2:11
On an empty stomach for sure.
Kirsty Taylor 2:15
It was a good time.
Marion Jochmans 2:16
Kirsty Taylor 2:21
It's been five years. It's okay. We, we both graduated. Don't worry, guys.
Okay, so we're gonna hop into our small wonders of the week. And so those of you that are new to the podcast, small wonder of the week is just something that you've enjoyed during the week. It is typically something that's like on a smaller scale or like underappreciated. Sometimes it's bigger, but this week, hopefully we're keeping it small. So I'll just kick it off with mine. So my small wonder of the week for this week is just sitting down for dinner, like having sit down meal at lunch and dinner. My dad works from home and I'm back home now. And it's nice to be able to have lunch with him. I even cooked him a really nice lunch today, you know, star daughter, and it's just really nice to have someone to chat to and not be like listening to a podcast or staring a TV screen while I'm eating. So that is my small wonder of the week. What's yours, Marion?
Marion Jochmans 3:18
Yeah, I love that. I think my small wonder is, so I've been I was in lockdown by myself in Edinburgh. And then I've just been back home to Belgium. I flew back a little bit over two weeks ago now. So I think my small wonder of this week is hugging my parents. And just being home really.
Kirsty Taylor 3:40
Oh, yeah, I totally get that, that was nice. Yeah. To have like that intimacy. I agree.
Marion Jochmans 3:46
Yeah, exactly. Because three weeks without hugs was actually, three weeks. Sorry. Three months was quite rough.
Kirsty Taylor 3:53
Three weeks would be rough too but three months.
Marion Jochmans 3:56
Exactly, but three months was horrible. So yeah it's nice to be able to be close to the people that I love again, for sure.
Kirsty Taylor 4:04
Nice. And then we're just gonna kick into the next portion of the podcast that is weekly, which is what we're engaging with. So in other weeks, I've mainly made it like media's, whether that's like a TV series, a book, a podcast, etc. But this week, I just want to keep it simple. And then I've just been engaging with other people and having conversations about things going on in the world, whether that's anti racism, being a better ally to LGBTQ plus people and just, I don't know, just like or being more eco conscious. So just having conversations with people I'm close to because obviously, if you have conversations with like your friends and family and they respect you, they might be more willing to listen than if they're reading something online and things like that. So that's how I've been engaging with things. I don't know if you have something you'd like to share, Marion?
Marion Jochmans 4:55
Yeah, I mean, I've been doing the same thing. Just talking to my family about these issues. Especially the racism in the US and the prison industrial complex and all of that. In terms of media, though, I've actually recently started rewatching Orange is the New Black, and I got to the last season where they kind of get into ICE. So I'm reading more about that as well.And trying to educate myself on what's happening over there at the moment. So, yeah.
Kirsty Taylor 5:28
Yeah, I think there's a petition going around right now. I can if I can find it, I can put it in the show notes about ICE because they're deporting students, I think it's students right?.
Marion Jochmans 5:38
Yes, yes I did see that. Yeah, they are deporting students right now, which is just it's just absolutely disgusting. So yeah, that's definitely something I need to read more about and engage with more for sure.
Kirsty Taylor 5:45
Yeah, I can put that petition in the shownotes for anyone that wants to check it out. And yeah, so now we will kick into the poem of the week.
So for this week's poem, it was quite hard to find a poem that really captured the essence of what I wanted. I wanted a poem that would celebrate bisexuality in many different ways rather than focusing on the sexual poems there's a lot of poems that are quite sexual about bisexuality, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but I wanted something that celebrated all the different aspects of being bisexual. So I found a poem by LGBT poet laureate, Trudy Howson and I'll have more about her in the show notes. And she wrote a poem just called 'Bisexual Visibility Day'. And so yeah, I'm just going to read the poem to you.
'Bisexual Visibility Day'. Do or die, laugh or cry, Why not? Gay or Bi, bold or shy. Let's not pretend we haven't been there. Or tell ourselves we aren't aware. Let's not judge just because we haven't experienced the possibility. Let's put our prejudice aside. Be Gay or Bi, no need to hide. September is the month that we celebrate bisexuality. It's pretty cool to be that way. Open to love, both straight and gay. And Who the hell are we to say, it's wrong to be able to feel that way? Don't we hate it when people say that it's not natural to be trans or gay. So let's embrace the joy that we can share together, of being free. Instead of a wall let's have a door. Instead of less, let's have more. It's love that makes the world rotate. Let's support each other, not hesitate. Let's make the world a better place, for bisexuals of every age and race.
Yeah, so that's the poem by Trudy Howson. So that is our poem for the week.
Hi guys. Kirsty just popping in here for the charity spot of the week. As you know, we like to keep it on point with what the topic of the episode is. So this week I asked Marion what charity she would like to highlight and she said LGBT Youth Scotland. So LGBT Youth Scotland is a charity, which is all about getting involved in helping and loving and being a good ally to LGBTQ plus young people in particular in Scotland, and there's lots of different ways you can get involved, their website is www.lgbtyouth.org.uk, which I'll have in the show notes. There is fundraising, obviously that you can do like most charities, fundraising, volunteering, campaigns and events, and their recent campaign hashtag still proud was thinking of positive ways to use the money we might normally have spent on pride events this summer. So you can check that out their website and another thing I just wanted to highlight from this awesome charity is m IDA HOBIT or IDAHOBIT 2020, which is Join us as we mark the International Day against homophobia, biphobia, inter phobia and transphobia in 2020, with this interactive digital workshop, so you can check that out on their website, which will be in the show notes. Enjoy the rest of the episode.
Okay, so now we're gonna kick into the main episode of the week. So this week we're talking about just I guess about sexuality in general, but specifically about being bisexual and I guess about combating biphobia. I was trying to think of the right word and I think I like combating it so far. Yeah, I To be honest, I think I stole it from an article I read earlier. So I'll give, I'll give credit. But yeah, so we're just going to talk a little bit about all of that, I guess.
Marion Jochmans 10:10
Let's do it.
Kirsty Taylor 10:11
So we wanted to start off by talking about, I guess, but being bisexual means like, you feel like a lot of people know, but I feel like people don't really know. What bisexual means.
Marion Jochmans 10:22
Yeah, no for sure I think people kind of misinterpreted or just don't completely understand it. Which is fair enough, because I think bisexuality is different for every single person. Like everybody kind of experiences it differently. So yeah, it's hard to explain sometimes so.
Kirsty Taylor 10:40
Yeah, I agree. I think the main thing to remember when you talk about when somebody like says they're bisexual or you talk about bisexuality is it's not like a one, a one glove is that the saying? or one shoe fits all.
Marion Jochmans 10:53
One size fits all?
Kirsty Taylor 10:54
That's the saying. One glove? I don't know where that came from. I've just finished watching the people vs. OJ Simpson. There's like a big thing.
Marion Jochmans 11:09
Oh a glove, I know.
Kirsty Taylor 11:10
There's a big thing about a glove in that so it must be where that came from. But that's so random. Yeah, one size I literally wrote it in the Word doc, yeah one size fits all. I think it's just. For sure for me personally, I think like sexuality is more of a spectrum. I know like people have differing opinions on that. Whose theory is that?
Marion Jochmans 11:34
Kinsey. You've got the Kinsey scale from like, one to six. That's what I'm thinking about at the moment.
Kirsty Taylor 11:43
Yeah, no, that's Yeah, that's it. But um, yeah, so it's not like if you're bisexual doesn't mean you like 50% women 50% men or you don't and it doesn't mean that you don't like non binary people. It doesn't mean that you don't like transsexual people. Like it's not, it's not like that. It's just Yeah.
Marion Jochmans 12:04
yeah, no, exactly. I think there is this misconception first of all that bisexuality means 50/50, which it isn't for some people, probably yes but not for everyone. And then again, as you say, there is just that. Again, just misconception about the actual definition because by means two, so people assume that being bisexual means you're only attracted to two genders, but that's not actually the case it means you're attracted to your own gender and other genders.
Kirsty Taylor 12:33
Marion Jochmans 12:34
So, bisexuality includes trans people, and it includes non binary people, which is something I feel like I always have to explain but um, yeah,
Kirsty Taylor 12:45
yeah, I thought you actually shared something really interesting was, I think was an Instagram post, right?
Marion Jochmans 12:54
Yes, yes, yes
Kirsty Taylor 12:55
Which I can link below as well. About the difference between bisexuality and pansexuality which I thought was really interesting, because I feel like that's something that even people who are of one of those sexualities kind of like. Yeah, it's like a weird.
Marion Jochmans 13:11
It is it is. I think I've even I mean, I've had people ask me like, Well, why do you identify as bi and not pan if you include, like trans people? And I was like, well, because. Because that's bisexuality, like, it's fine. I think it's very much. I think it's confusing for everyone. But also, I mean, there is there are a few differences in between the two in between bisexuality and pansexuality, which was very well explained in the post. But, but, you know, they're quite similar and they overlap and and it's kind of it kind of comes to like, your preference to what you are more comfortable identifying as,
Kirsty Taylor 13:57
Yeah, I think it's
Marion Jochmans 13:58
Sorry I lost my train of thought for a second
Kirsty Taylor 13:59
No, you're no, you're fine. I think I totally agree. Like, it's just it's personal, like sexuality is such a personal thing. And that's why I personally feel like there's a weird kind of what's the term like there's a weird kind of line with it because it's like, you don't want to advertise all the time your sexuality, but you also don't want to be hiding it. So it's like that hard. But it's like you don't go to the Oscars or whatever and like, have your name written and presenter and then homosexual, bisexual. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like, it's a it's a it's a label, but I don't like to label if that makes sense. Like, yeah,
Marion Jochmans 14:35
it's just that we live in a world that wants to label everything.
Kirsty Taylor 14:39
Yeah, like I, in terms of like a label. I completely understand the history behind the label and like, why people fight for the rights and like, why people have to come out and things like that, like I get that, but also would be nice. And also, to be honest, probably very optimistic at this point, to live in a world where like, you don't have to come at it. It's just I mean,
Marion Jochmans 15:01
Kirsty Taylor 15:03
Yeah, so, um, so I feel like we're not gonna talk about coming out stories because I feel like I don't know
Marion Jochmans 15:10
Kirsty Taylor 15:12
Marion Jochmans 15:13
But yeah, we don't need to talk about that.
Kirsty Taylor 15:19
It's just kind of like, do you ever come out once like I thought you said something really interesting. And Olivia oh I'm going to butcher her last name. How do you say her last name?
Marion Jochmans 15:31
Kirsty Taylor 15:32
Okay yes, in her in the interview with her on her YouTube, you say something really interesting about you don't really ever come out once, like you're coming out basically your whole life and I thought that was such a like, Good point. It was like well, you don't ever like just be like, Oh yeah, I'm done now everyone knows.
Marion Jochmans 15:51
I know because I hate I kind of will not hate because I get it but it does sometimes. Slightly annoy me when people ask me about my coming out story because I never know where to start and where to end because I'm like, it's still happening. That's my entire life.
Kirsty Taylor 16:05
Yeah exactly, I totally get it. Like, I feel like, I don't really like to I don't really label my sexuality at all. Like, I just personally am like, I don't like that. Yeah, I'm not for that, but if I was to label it, like if somebody put a gun to my head and say you have to label your sexuality, I would probably say I was bi and like, but I don't feel like I've ever really come out, like, my, like, I've spoken to my parents and said, like, but it's never been like a big, like a big thing. It's not like, oh, we're gonna have this party with like a rainbow cake and all this stuff. Like, it's just like, this is the like, I've just said, What would you? But I kind of like I guess I've tested the waters. And yeah, like, I've been like, oh, what would How would you react if like, Rory that's my brother. came home with a boyfriend cuz I'm like, oh, like, test it out,
Marion Jochmans 16:57
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Kirsty Taylor 16:58
But I feel like it's it's like one of those things like Why should I have to bring it up? Like I remember once. I was like with um, I obviously was with one of some of the boys I play sport with was like me and like five guys or something. And they were talking about when we were on holiday in Mallorca. And we had we met up with this like cycling woman who was like an elite cyclist came to like ride with us sometimes as part of the package. And she was good looking. And the boys were all talking about it and like saying, like, Oh, yeah, she was so fit and like, all this stuff. And then I was just like, fuck it. And I said, Yeah, she was actually like, really fit. And then they were all like yeah but it's not the same. And I was like, excuse me. I was like, um
Marion Jochmans 17:21
Kirsty Taylor 17:35
Yeah. And they all just like went silent. And they were like, Oh, I never like, knew that. And I was like, why would you? like Yeah, why? Why would you need to?
Marion Jochmans 17:53
Yeah, exactly. I know. I know. I yeah. I don't think I've ever like I've never, I don't think I've ever come out as bi actually. I've always just like, come out. quote on quote.
Kirsty Taylor 18:06
With who you are with?
Marion Jochmans 18:05
Yeah exactly. I just telling people like, yeah, I like girls like this. Yeah, I'm attracted to women that's it.
Kirsty Taylor 18:09
Yeah, I was just like, What's your problem? When they were like, Oh, yeah, but it's not the same and I was like, well Oh, yeah, is the same actually, it's exactly the same. It was so funny, but they didn't think obviously, it didn't mean anything by it, but I was just kind of like, Well, why would I tell you that? Like, have you ever asked? Like if you asked, I wouldn't deny it, but you never asked. So why would I bring it up? I'm just training one day.
Marion Jochmans 18:37
Kirsty Taylor 18:38
I was like, I didn't just show up a training one day like, oh, by the way, guys, like I'm into girls as well as guys.
Marion Jochmans 18:42
Yes because why would you do that? Exactly.
Kirsty Taylor 18:46
Running on a track like, Oh, just so you know, like, I talk a lot at training to be fair, and I could probably bring up anything but yeah, I think one of the other things
Marion Jochmans 18:56
Kirsty Taylor 18:56
Oh no, you go?
Marion Jochmans 18:57
Oh, yeah, no, I'm just gonna say that. Like, I do understand that. Like not wanting to label or come out, but then at the same time, like I kind of, like the labeling and the coming out in the sense of I just like being like, I'm proud to be Bi, do you know what I mean? Because I used to be so ashamed of it. And then it's so nice to be a part of the community. And, yeah, I've also, I also do think that coming out sometimes is important, just because because it's a rough process. It's quite difficult to come to terms with it. So it's nice when you're, when you can tell others and like, not make too much big of a deal, but kind of make a deal out of it to be like, I recognize like, I recognize your struggle.
Kirsty Taylor 19:43
Yeah, I totally get what you mean just to be like, Oh, I have like a place where I belong, kind of thing. Yeah, I get you. I just feel like I haven't deciphered for myself. Like, if I would consider myself Bi or Pan because I just
Marion Jochmans 19:56
Kirsty Taylor 19:56
Because that's just something I haven't worked out yet.
Marion Jochmans 19:58
And that takes awhile, yeah, yeah, yeah
Kirsty Taylor 19:58
So that's why I don't want to like Say like I'm Bi then later be like no I'm pan, because people will be like what? Like, that doesn't make sense. No, so that's why I haven't, I haven't like fully labeled it just cuz I'm still working that out. And I guess a part of that is, I guess going on another tangent like there was never Bi people anywhere growing up like, I swear like I not that I was aware of anyway yeah like as a child at all, like I grew up in the town that I'm in right now and in a little village with 100 kids in a primary school and then went to a secondary school that was far larger, but even then, like, it wasn't common. Like, you probably had the occasional guy that was like, gay. I honestly don't even remember having like any women that were gay in high school, but maybe they just weren't out, like maybe it just wasn't public knowledge.
Marion Jochmans 20:50
Kirsty Taylor 20:51
If you see what I mean?
Marion Jochmans 20:52
Yeah, no I know and I think that's why I mean, it took me so long to be comfortable with the bisexual label. I think maybe that's why now I kind of talk about it. Not a lot but I do talk about it way more openly because I'm like, finally at a place where I'm like, No, this is the label that I'm comfortable with. And it took me so long to get here so I want to talk about
Kirsty Taylor 21:14
Yeah, no, I totally got that. I feel like I wasn't even aware that the label existed until I was well
Marion Jochmans 21:20
Kirsty Taylor 21:21
Marion Jochmans 21:22
No, exactly. Yeah, I used to be so confused like because I do remember being quite young and already realizing that I might prefer girls but then being also like, but I do also kind of like boys and it took me so long to understand like oh, yeah, that's that's fine. That's normal. You can like both
Kirsty Taylor 21:40
Yeah, I like I honestly think for me like University was the biggest like, turning point because all of a sudden I was like, in a capital city like I mean, Edinburgh is not massive but like, it's fairly diverse. It's
Marion Jochmans 21:53
It's quite gay
Kirsty Taylor 21:55
compared to like, the countryside.
Marion Jochmans 21:58
Yeah, yeah exactly
Kirsty Taylor 21:58
I was in like a university, that was like very like, the university. Definitely we're like, not the university specifically, but like the Student Union. We're definitely like happy to celebrate pride and things like that. And I was just like and honestly, in English and Film, like, in our course there was a lot of people were just, yeah, openly themselves. And that was when I realised like, oh, like, this is a thing. Like, this is normal. This is cool.
Marion Jochmans 22:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Kirsty Taylor 22:24
I've been living under a rock for 20 years, like, maybe not 20, maybe 18. But I was like, wow, this is like, this is cool. And then it was like, you can try and work it out more because you're not at home and you're not like with your parents. And also you have more free time to be honest. Like I have a little bit more time to myself. Yeah, I was growing up like I was doing things all the time. Like, and I think that's also something it's funny when you look back on it because I never really dated.
Marion Jochmans 22:52
Kirsty Taylor 22:53
Like I still, I still don't really date but like, I mean, like in high school. I had like, I dated like two boys. And by that, I mean we went on one date.
Marion Jochmans 23:03
Kirsty Taylor 23:04
And that's like, that makes a lot of sense. Now I'm like, Oh, yeah, you didn't know you don't even know if. And I remember always saying there's no attractive boys at the school. And to be honest, I still stand by that statement to this day. Because we all just did not have nice personalities at the time. I'm sure they're lovely people now. But yeah, I didn't really like have guy friends in high school. Like I had them in primary school, and then they all hit puberty, and got mean.
Marion Jochmans 23:31
Kirsty Taylor 23:32
And I was like I don't want to hang out with these people. Yeah, so that's funny when you look back on it, you're like, Huh, like, I guess Yeah, why? But no, um, I think the other thing with that is like, I feel like there's a lot of that comes with like a lot of internalized biphobia. It's like a thing you're not aware of.
Marion Jochmans 23:52
Kirsty Taylor 23:53
Like I feel like growing up, I didn't. Obviously, if you don't know something exists, and And then it exists in your life. It's kind of like, Oh, what is this like, odd thing? And I think it's easy. The easy option in life is always to be ignorant. It's not the right option. The easy options are rarely the right option. But I think that's something that's like really interesting is how, because that that's not a process that happens overnight. You're not like, Oh, yeah, okay, I don't know who I am, oh tomorrow, I'm gonna be Bi and I don't have any internalized biphobia, and everything's great. Like the world is filled with rainbows. Like, yeah, I don't know, if you want to talk a little bit about like growing up and things like that.
Marion Jochmans 24:36
Yeah, I think internalized biphobia is Oh, God, it was horrible. Um, I definitely, I mean, as you said, like, you can't be what you can't see, right? So if you've never even heard of the word, you've never heard it like you've never seen anyone, be openly bi or like just proud or whatever. Obviously, it's just not going to be an option in your little child's brain. Like you're just yeah, you just don't get it and then this world is so it is homophobic. Let's be honest. I know a lot of people are gonna be like, no, but look, we've come a long way. And I'm like, Yes, we have we have, but we're still it's still so incredibly homophobic. So obviously, all of the messages that I received as a kid, even though like, my family did do their best to like normalize being gay, like we had like gay friends and stuff, but gay, like male friends. Um, mostly, so I never even saw happy lesbians until who knows?
Kirsty Taylor 25:39
So true. So true.
Marion Jochmans 25:41
I like I was like, Oh, yeah, guys can be gay, but girls can't like I don't know. It was so weird. Yeah, I was just like, no this like, I'm like, it's fine when guys are gay, but like women like happy lesbians. Never heard of it. Um, and then it was like bisexuals. I kind of I like I was aware of it quite young I feel like but again, the image that you get the stereotype is like, girls making out with other girls to like appeal to the to a male audience. And it's like,
Kirsty Taylor 26:13
or like a threesome or
Marion Jochmans 26:15
Exactly. It's like, Oh, it's promiscuous. It's like, cute. Like, it's all about sex. And I'm just like, that's actually not necessarily like, no. Um, and it's just, yeah, it's very much seen as this phase. That's done for men. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, oh, yeah, guys think it's hot when girls are together. And it's like, well, oh my god.
Kirsty Taylor 26:41
Yeah, it was like, the only thing you ever heard about, like, bi, bisexuality, but even then it was never never called that. Was it?
Marion Jochmans 26:48
No, it was never even named. No it wasn't.
Kirsty Taylor 26:50
And it was always the only thing I ever remember hearing about things like that. And that obviously didn't know they were bisexuality at the time was like, where they'd be like, Oh, yeah, I tried that in college or like
Marion Jochmans 27:00
Yeah exactly it's like a phase right? It's a passing phase. Like, oh, yeah, let's try it.
Kirsty Taylor 27:06
Oh, yeah I just experimented for a week like I don't want to be your experiment.
Marion Jochmans 27:09
Exactly. Like No, that's ugh a fucking hate that. Sorry. I just swore on your podcast.
Kirsty Taylor 27:13
No, it's okay. It's nice. It's not a PG, so I don't think it's a U. I think I feel like I've sworn on it before.
But yeah, no, I just I totally, yeah.
And it was also on shows that are like, typically like, not bad, like, in general are good shows. And I was like, why you got to ruin it like that.
Marion Jochmans 27:38
yeah, I think do you know what I actually now that I think of I think the first time that I saw a bisexual character on TV might have been the OC. But again, like, Yeah, but Marissa kind of goes through a phase. She's like dating this girl for a little bit and it's really much seen as this act of revenge against her mother, mostly. And then after that, she goes back to dating men, which is fine. Like if if you're Bi and you date mostly men or you or whatever, but in the show, it was very much seen as this phase and the girl that she was dating, who also identified as Bi I think, Um. Just kind of disappears.
Kirsty Taylor 28:19
Yeah, she does, that's true.
Marion Jochmans 28:21
And I'm just like, okay, it's fine.
Kirsty Taylor 28:23
Marion Jochmans 28:24
yeah, so it's again, like everything we saw about bisexuality and still to this day is just so it's just so like, stereotyped and it's just so wrong.
Kirsty Taylor 28:35
Yeah. Agreed. I've said on this podcast before and I swear, like I'm gonna get if I ever get merch, I was gonna say this representation is validation. And when done, right, it's a celebration.
Marion Jochmans 28:47
I love that.
Kirsty Taylor 28:47
It't not done right? So it's not like it's not even it's not. validation is a validation that exists, but it's not. It's not a solid
Marion Jochmans 28:55
But again, it's not even like a validation that it exists properly. Like,
Kirsty Taylor 28:59
it's like a comiseration It's a comiseration more than anything.
Marion Jochmans 29:02
It's just so horrible. Cuze I actually remember like, I mean, and this is where the internalized biphobia comes in. But I remember when I first started realizing that I liked girls and boys like it took it took a while, I think I realized I liked girls before I realized I like boys, first of all, so I thought I was gay when I was younger. And that which is weird. I did. Did it the other way around. Um, but I do remember being like, this is awful. Like, I don't want to be gay. And then I kind of realized like, Oh, no, maybe I'll be fine because I kind of like boys too. So maybe I'll just like, marry a man and pretend this never existed like never happened. Um, but then I kind of growing up and figuring it out. I was just like, No, I do like both. And I remember not wanting to like I got to a point when I was again, older, and I feel like at that point, I had less internalized homophobia. I remember thinking like, you know, when I was about like 14, 15 maybe Yeah, literally thinking like, Okay, look, it's fine if you're gay, but don't be Bi because, like, like, which was just so wrong when I think about it now but I do remember being like no, you're gonna have to choose it's gonna have to be one or the other. Um, and I did like realize that I did prefer girls so for a while I was just like okay, well then just let's never explore the like boys. I was just like, it's fine I'll just be a lesbian now that's just gonna be it. And then growing up and actually going to college, then that's when I started dating boys but I dated girls in high school. That's when I was like No, I'm definitely Bi and it was Yeah. God it was just so hard but I do remember like hating myself for liking both like liking both. And really, like almost sitting down and being like Marion, you have to choose like it's one or the other.
Yeah, I know get what you mean.
I feel like it was like a thing. I feel like I was so desperate to be straight at the start of University
Yeah, oh my God,
Kirsty Taylor 31:09
I was like, it'll make life so much easier. I remember being in like female sports. And to be fair, this was a very stereotypical and homophobic thing to say anyway. But people would say things like, Oh, well, you play women's basketball, you play women's hockey, you must be gay. And I was like, I'm not gay. So then I like took on the persona of being like the only straight person in the team.
Marion Jochmans 31:30
Kirsty Taylor 31:32
Yeah. And then I was like, I'm not straight. Like, every night, every time after training I'd be like, I don't think I'm straight. Yeah, I feel like this is weird. And also who do I talk to about this? And I feel like the first person actually, that I ever spoke to about my sexuality because I never I don't know it just like this village is pretty conservative. Like my my parents and I we do have a great relationship and we have spoken about it a bit but not in depth. Cuz like
Marion Jochmans 32:00
Kirsty Taylor 32:02
also we just I don't want to hear but they're like, there's like a line like some people, some people do talk to their parents about everything and have that kind of relationship where like, it's like a sisterly thing with their mom but like my mom and I, that's not like I do not want to know what my mom does with my dad at night. Like, no way. And she doesn't want to know what I do. Like it's not she said, She's always said like, I'll meet someone when you're ready for me to meet them. And if I want to ask her about something, I will but it's not like I don't have to tell her about it. Because I am not for me it's just an uncut like that's not how our relationship works as mother and daughter and it's definitely not how it works his father and daughter like it's just not a conversation we have like my parents are not young so it would be kind of weird I'd be like, stop talking. But um, yeah, and then I don't know I guess growing up in a time that was quiet like wasn't really a thing you spoke about. I don't really speak about it with like, friends growing up like, there was the occasional like, what was that? The um, That's what she said joke or whatever, but Nobody actually knew what they were talking about. Like it was just kind of like one of those awkward things. But there was never really a conversation about it until University. And then I think I just said to like one of my friends one night, I had been I know what it was, I had been out, like, for a drink the night before with one of my other friends. And one of her friends was like, this good looking girl. And I was like, Oh, shit, and I was like wine drunk. And I was like, shit I am attracted this girl, And I think because I was wine drunk. I didn't have time to overthink it like, Oh, this is cool. So I was like chatting with her and things like that, like never really went anywhere. But it was just nice to be like, Okay, this is like legit, because I think when you're sober you can, not that's a bad example not when you're sober. But like when, when you're when you're like have a lot of time with your thoughts
Marion Jochmans 33:47
Kirsty Taylor 33:47
like I guess if you're like in your room alone and you're thinking about something you can overthink things to the max which is a talent I really have.
Marion Jochmans 33:54
Kirsty Taylor 33:55
Whereas i was out i out with these people having fun, like Who's it? like, do you know what I mena, Who's it bothering? We were at a house party so I wasn't concerned about like anyone judging because the people there were all have different sexualities anyway, it wasn't like everyone in the room was straight. So I was like, Yeah, well, this is cool. And then yeah, like that night, or maybe it was the next day. I like spoke to one of my friend who's, um, who's a lesbian. And I said, I think I like, like girls. Like, as well as I was like, but not like, just girls. And she was like, Oh, that's cool. And she was like, why are you telling me this though? And I was like, cuz she just obviously like, cuz she's been out for a while. She was kinda like, what? Yeah. And I was like, No, I'm like, just realizing this. And she was like, oh, okay, like, I get it. But I feel like I've been very lucky in the friend department. But I think part of that is because I didn't say anything until like, I was much older. And also I'd kind of didn't say things to people. I said things to people at different times. Like I didn't Yeah, obviously, obviously didn't make a Facebook post. And I never like I don't know, I just kind of messaged people at different times or spoke to people in person at different times when it was natural. Yes, I was trying not to build up into a big deal because I didn't want it to be like, it's a big deal to me. But I also didn't want to like, I don't know what's like over not overplay it, but like, I didn't want to stress myself out with it.
Marion Jochmans 35:18
No, yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah, no, I was actually quite lucky that I was my friends in high school were already like, way more open. And, and I kind of realized that really early on. And I do remember just being able to figure out my sexuality with my friends and a lot of my friends, like turned out to also be Bi and gay, like, we just kind of all figured it out together being like, Oh, yeah, this is a thing. And yeah, like all my friends, everyone that I came out with in like, in high school, or a secondary school were like when I was around 13, 14, 15 and everybody was always so cool. With it, and it was always just me being like, I think I like girls. Okay, and they were just like, yeah, full like, yeah, this is good for you. This is difficult to figure out, you know, and I was able to kind of figure it out with them, which was amazing. And then I think Tumblr did a lot. I think Tumblr normalized it for me,
I didn't have Tumblr
See, I think everybody was gay on Tumblr, and I was like, Oh, it's okay.
Kirsty Taylor 36:27
Maybe I would have liked it. I would have worked it out sooner.
Marion Jochmans 36:30
Yeah, I think I think it helped me a lot. It helped me a lot to not figure it out. Because I already knew but it helped me to, which is normal, normalize it and process it. Yeah. And be able to talk to others about it. And then I actually like, I I, my first girlfriend I met on Tumblr, which is just such a stereotype. I was like, 15, but we only dated for a month. And we met like twice. Um, I think it was just because she was from Belgium. And I was like, Oh my God. She's gay and she's from Belgium. We need to be together.
Kirsty Taylor 37:04
We have so much in common.
Marion Jochmans 37:06
We have so much in common. Let's meet up in Brussels and I'll lie to my parents about it.
Um, but yeah so no, so Tumblr was a huge help.
Kirsty Taylor 37:15
That's nice. That's good. Yeah. I feel like because my friends were older when I told them they kind of had already. They weren't Yeah. In their like, I don't think I mean, I think that I don't think any of my friends exclusively growing up were homophobic, but I think rather than my friends being it was more the community as a whole was like homophobic. Like it wasn't something like it wasn't like they were. I don't know how to explain it. Like it wasn't like it was in your face homophobia. It was more subtle, but it was
Marion Jochmans 37:51
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Kirsty Taylor 37:52
it was like it was things like that people are like, Oh, that's not a big deal where they'd be like, Oh, that's so gay. You're so gay and it was always a derogatory word or like, Oh my god, I bet that girl's like a lesbian and things like that. Mm hmm. I was just like, I was just like, Um so like that when you have that for like, 13 years of school, like, let's be real in primary school, maybe only like three years of it, but when you have that first so like, so much of your life, and it was not coming from my home at all, like my parents are very, like, open and willing to understand people and they are very, like, inclusive and like very ahead of their generation. I think in general, like they are. My mum has like, my mum and I we do we do clash sometimes. We have similar personalities. Um, yeah, but she's, she's willing to learn and I think that's the most important thing if you are a friend or family member who has someone I suppose come out to them. Like it's just being willing to listen and to learn and not make it like about you.
Marion Jochmans 38:54
Yeah, for sure.
Kirsty Taylor 38:55
It's about them.
Marion Jochmans 38:56
Mm hmm. Yeah, but I do think it's the worst part is all the small, like insidious homophobia, because I actually I recently talked about my coming out again with my mum, because we both have quite different memories. But she did tell me like I don't I didn't understand why you were so scared. Because I came out to her when I was 17, which was like, two girlfriends later, and I had already come out to all of my friends. Um, so it quite like it took me a long time to finally tell my family. And yeah, we spoke about and she was just like, Why were you so scared? Like, we've always been so welcoming, and accepting and whatnot. And I was just like, Well, yeah, you have mostly but then like, there's so much homophobia that I've heard growing up from. Like, mostly people at my school, mostly peers.
Kirsty Taylor 39:48
Marion Jochmans 39:48
Then again, it's just those expressions, or it's using like slurs to describe someone that's not like it's just like using gay as an insult or certain behaviors. Like that are coded as gay maybe like using it
Kirsty Taylor 40:03
Yeah or like camp being like,
Marion Jochmans 40:05
Yeah, exactly. Or just like talking, like saying horrible things. Okay, people like I've heard that, like, I've had people in primary school or like early secondary school being like, it's just wrong. Like, it's just disgusting, blah, blah, blah. And then and then you're just there next and you're like, Ah, yeah, I don't I don't know. God, like, it's just, it's all these little things.
Kirsty Taylor 40:29
Yeah, I agree
Marion Jochmans 40:30
That you just pick up on always.
Kirsty Taylor 40:32
And it's like, oh, she plays like this sport. She must be a lesbian
Marion Jochmans 40:36
Oh, yeah, all those stereotypes are also so incredibly harmful.
Kirsty Taylor 40:40
Like, wake up, or like, Oh, she's a tomboy. She's gonna be like, gay when she's older.
Marion Jochmans 40:44
Kirsty Taylor 40:46
Why? Maybe not.
Marion Jochmans 40:47
Kirsty Taylor 40:48
Why are you even using the term tomboy, like, let the kids play with what the kids want to play with like, why does that exist? Yeah, no, I totally get you. And I think we should go in and talk a little bit about Like, how to be a better ally? I mean, I want to say just like before we get into it properly, like, in general, like there isn't one like, perfect answer for how to be a better ally to anyone. Yeah, there never will be. It's about mostly, I mean, more than anything. I think it's about being open to everyone regardless.
Marion Jochmans 41:19
Kirsty Taylor 41:19
And being willing to understand also being able to understand that sexuality is a personal journey and a personal experience.
Marion Jochmans 41:27
Kirsty Taylor 41:27
So, how you experience it with one friend like isn't necessarily how it's gonna be for another friend.
Marion Jochmans 41:33
Yeah, it's completely different for everyone. Yeah, exactly.
Kirsty Taylor 41:35
You can't expect expect their experiences to be the same. Yeah, why are you not doing this? Because this person did this. Like that's not relevant. So. Yeah, I don't know if you have anything that you want to kick us off with?
Marion Jochmans 41:47
Yeah, uh, I do think I think one of the main things is um, listening. I just think being able to listen to someone's experience and validate their experience. And as you said earlier, not make it about you. Because I do hate that.
And I think I do.
I don't know I feel like a lot of people sometimes when you try to talk to your struggles, they kind of in an attempt to make you feel better, they talk about themselves and share their own struggles, which are kind of completely unrelated. And it's like, I get what you're doing. But like, it's not the same.
Kirsty Taylor 42:31
But like, stop.
Marion Jochmans 42:32
Yeah, exactly. And then I do have some people who are always just like, I'm like, I've been told, like, Well, why are you complaining about these issues when you've had it? Like, quite easy, like, in terms of like my coming out journey and stuff, okay. And it's like, um, you don't know, first of all, like, You have no idea how easy or hard it was for me because of the internalized homophobia and so it's just like, It's so important to just validate someone's experience. Like if I tell you, no, this was actually really hard, then you should just be like, okay, like, I hear you, and I'm here for you, and all of that. You know what I mean? Instead of just being like, uh, but you're privileged. I'm like, I do know that. But
Kirsty Taylor 43:16
Yeah, but that doesn't mean you don't have feelings
Marion Jochmans 43:18
exactly, it doesn't mean that it wasn't hard. And so yeah, I don't know. Just like, just listening and validating someone's experiences, like the first stepto being a good ally, for sure.
Kirsty Taylor 43:30
Yeah, for sure. I think, yeah, that's just guilt tripping. Like,
Marion Jochmans 43:34
yeah, oh my god I hate that.
Kirsty Taylor 43:34
Like, I know, there's shit things happening in the world. And I'm actually trying to do things about them however I can. But like, that doesn't mean that I can't have like my own feelings and like expressions and personal experiences that make me feel certain ways. If I didn't have those things, I wouldn't be human. And then I wouldn't like understand that I do have privilege. Like, why is that even relevant to bring up?
Marion Jochmans 43:35
Kirsty Taylor 43:58
I totally get you. I think that's such a I also think another thing is that, um, remember that it's I mean, I, this is something that people have said a lot during, like the anti racism movement. And it's remember that it's not personal all the time. Like, if I say, if I tell you that comment, like, for example, there was someone in my life recently, like, I'll just tell you, I'm not gonna say who it was because I don't do that. But um like, they said something and they didn't realize so basically what they said was I like said, I don't even know how it came up if I'm being completely honest. But they said, like, I don't know if you should, like, advertise that you like, like boys and girls. And so what like, why, like, Why? I mean, I don't I don't advertise anything, but regardless of why not, but I was like, Okay, why, like, why not? And then they said, well, like, they might get jealous of each other. And I was just like, what, what, like, the What do you like, but like, if I'm heterosexual, like, they could be boys. They could still get jealous, like, how is that relevant? Because they were kind of like insinuating that well, because you're bi like, more people are going to get jealous because like,
Marion Jochmans 45:07
Oh my god, I know I've had that so many times
Kirsty Taylor 45:09
you can't be friends with anyone because like, they'll always reach be jealous and I was just like, Are you shitting? Like, Are you shitting me? Yeah, that's not. But I like that wasn't that person just didn't know what they were saying. Like, it wasn't like it wasn't intentional. I'm being mindful. Biphobic comment. It was just a case of like foot in the mouth. That's all it was, and they were willing to listen and to say, Oh, do you know what like, now that I've listened to you? I understand what you're saying and actually shouldn't have said that, like, that was wrong with me. And I'm sorry about that. And that's when you're able to be like, okay, like, I screwed up. It's not i'm not saying Oh, you are you are biphobic like you are homophobic. I'm just saying that was a biphobic comment and you shouldn't have said it.
Marion Jochmans 45:52
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, I think that's so important. And it's just I think being willing again, just to listen and ask questions like I really don't mind when people ask me questions. Um, because I, I've had that instance before as well that someone has said like, Oh, yeah, like I can understand that it would be hard for your partner like to like to date someone that's bi. Because because what if you go back to someone of another gender afterwards or whatnot or like, Yeah, I was just thinking that like the dating pool, like so much bigger and I'm just like, what, that's not how it works.
Kirsty Taylor 46:26
It's not like it's every single person is who I'm attracted to.
Marion Jochmans 46:30
I know it's not like I'm attracted to everyone, and it's definitely not that everybody's attracted to me. So like, don't worry about it. I'm basically being rejected by more genders actually, like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like, going around dating like, it's not. Again, that's just this idea that being bisexual means that you're promiscuous, or that you want to have an open relationship or you don't want to be like monogamous, which are both things that are completely fine. Do you know what I mean? But it's like
Being polyamorous is not related to being bi? And yeah, but then, but that person were just like, we were just we had a proper discussion about it and I was able to be like, well actually, that's not the case. And you like, and you shouldn't say that because that is like, a pretty biphobic comment. Um, and then we were able to, like have a discussion and then I was able to explain my experience and like, how I experienced my bisexuality, and basically why, you know, your partner shouldn't be jealous or think this way, because, Because it's just not true.
Kirsty Taylor 47:05
Yeah, exactly. Because it's just irrelevant.
Marion Jochmans 47:43
Yeah Exactly. It is not factual. Exactly, yeah. The people that I've dated before you or the people that I'm going to date after you, like their genders have nothing to do with you.
Kirsty Taylor 47:55
They're not related in any way apart from that I dated you.
Marion Jochmans 47:59
Yeah, don't be scared or jealous.
Kirsty Taylor 48:02
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's a really good point as well like asking questions because that is the thing as well like it is personal. So you can't just like read something and be like, Oh, well, everyone must be like, this way or presume that. I think another thing actually is something that you messaged me before that I thought was like, really important to mention in this podcast is that you need to celebrate like the small wins. You need to also like encourage your friend to in celebrate, to in celebrate? to to celebrate the small wins because I think something like as small as like, ticking both boxes on a dating app is a big deal, in reality.
Marion Jochmans 48:37
Yes! No, yes, it is. It is.
Kirsty Taylor 48:39
Yeah. And I feel like it's really easy to downplay that when you're dealing with like, everything like growing up not knowing and like internalized biphobia or homophobia and like being like, Oh my god, like this is like, and you are kind of like this is a big deal. But like, I don't want to, but like your friend should be like no, this is a big deal. So I think Be willing to like, call your friends out as well not call them out. I don't like that term but like to say like, oh, like not. Obviously you might not know but like, be like, Well, are you being fair on yourself kind of thing? Like not, don't be like you're being biphobic to yourself, because it's not a helpful comment to anyone, like Don't say that. Unless you like know for sure. Yeah, just like say like, Is that fair? Like, would you or like, I think another thing is like, that I've noticed. It's like, would you say that to someone else? And half the time? The answer is no. Actually, let's be real three quarters of the time, because I wouldn't like the way I and that's another thing. That's the thing that is like, prominent is like, it's so easy to like be to speak to yourself, I guess in your mind in a way that you would never dream of doing to someone else. And I sometimes think like, I should write this down and be like, would I want to read that out loud. And if the answer's no, then I shouldn't be saying that to myself. But I think yeah, I think just, sorry the cat just got up behind me. I think the main thing is just, yeah, just be loving in the same way as you would if they weren't but also be willing to celebrate the fact that they are if that makes sense?
Marion Jochmans 50:15
I know and also Yeah, no, as you said, celebrating the small wins and like, don't make a big deal out of it. But also don't pretend that it doesn't exist because I've had people also just like, like, I've come out to people, and then they've just kind of never mentioned it again, in, in an attempt to be like accepting and to be like, well, this isn't a big deal. So we're not going to talk about it. And I'm like, No, no, no, no, because what you're doing here actually, is making me feel even more ashamed, because we're not talking about it. So in my mind, I'm like, Oh my god, you have a problem with it.
Kirsty Taylor 50:50
And yeah you are like erasing part of their identity like you're like taking a rubber, eraser is american, and you're getting a rubber and you're rubbing out part of their identity and that's definitely not being an ally
Marion Jochmans 51:04
so it's like please normalize it but also don't but also don't be afraid to talk about it because that's how we normalize it and by not talking about it that's when the stigma comes in. So yeah, yeah, I mean again just ask questions I guess that's on the same like I said,
Kirsty Taylor 51:23
I think the other thing which we will go into more depth in an exclusive interview on the website when it's up on Sunday is like, read things
Marion Jochmans 51:34
Yeah educate yourself also
Kirsty Taylor 51:35
And watch things and listen to things that are by people who are, oh this is funny, who are bi. I didn't mean that. Um, yeah, just be like diversify.
Marion Jochmans 51:35
Yeah, what you're Yeah, no, cuz I'm like ask questions for sure, but also don't don't expect me to educate you.
Kirsty Taylor 51:55
Don't I'm not you're. Oh, I am actually technically soon to be a qualified teacher. But I teach kids. I teach kids. I don't teach you. It's not my job to teach you. I get paid to teach them. Yeah, you're not paying me. I mean, um, we're educating you for free on this podcast.
Marion Jochmans 52:11
Yeah, yeah no,
Kirsty Taylor 52:12
So, you're welcome.
Marion Jochmans 52:14
We need to do it, but um, yeah, no, also like, yeah, educate yourself diversify your like, just listen to other voices and be more aware of it. Um yeah,
Kirsty Taylor 52:28
I think also, um, diversify in terms of like, don't just listen to like, people who are white and bi like diversify in like every possible way, like, yeah, like also, like, listen to things by like black trans people like sometimes you can be trans and identify as bi like, that's possible to happen. So like, that's something to remember that intersectionalities exist and so important.
Marion Jochmans 52:58
Yeah, there's. I'm gonna plug a great book that's called the Bi-ble. I don't know if you've heard of it.
Kirsty Taylor 53:06
Marion Jochmans 53:06
It's a hyphen. Monsters regiment. I think they're Scottish based.
Kirsty Taylor 53:11
Marion Jochmans 53:12
I mean, they're in Edinburgh, I'm sure. I think, I'm sure no, but anyways, but it's a collection of essays on about bisexual experience, and I think they have to they have two books out now. two volumes, and they're very intersectional. And they're very Yeah, you can you listen like you've got some essays from like, black, black men who are bi, which again, we don't see enough of. There's just way more way more diversity. And that's so important and like non binary bi folks like it's just, Oh, it's such a wonderful, wonderful book. And so you can read about other people's experiences and yeah, normalize it and Like diversifying your education.
Kirsty Taylor 54:04
Perfect. I think we are coming near to time. So we will talk about way more, um well not talk about, Well yeah talk about it but you'll be reading it. But I am trying to make my, um, all of my platforms more accessible, which is a long task. But basically, if you are, yeah, if you're listening to this and you are visually impaired, I'm going to have the audio of things that I write recorded so that if you're visually impaired, you can still engage. And also at some point, this is, I'm trying to find a program to do this, because transcribing takes a really long time, but I am planning to transcribe all my podcasts. So if you are hearing impaired, you're able to engage regardless because I think that's something that we don't really think about, in general, and I just realized the other day in the free time like what am I doing so, yeah, hopefully I'll find a program that's good at transcribing things so I don't have to sit and do that. But um, yeah, I guess Marion just told us about a really good book. So I'm just gonna end this off with what I'm reading this week. And actually, I am reading a book that was recommended to me by Marion, um Marion has great taste in reading. So I typically, like most things that you post on your stories or on your blog. Right now, I'm reading your silence will not protect you by Audrey Lorde, who's, she's a lot of things, but she's a black, lesbian feminist writer, but also a mother. And she describes herself as a warrior, which I completely agree with, and a lot of other things. But I don't want to say more because I want you to read the book.
Marion Jochmans 55:36
It's wonderful, yeah,
Kirsty Taylor 55:37
Try and find it independent bookstores if possible, and I can have some black owned bookstores in the show notes. Also, as per usual, like check out lighthouse books because I'm just a big fan.
Marion Jochmans 55:50
That's where I got my copy!
Kirsty Taylor 55:51
So I guess we will now do the outro, we wanted to end this episode on a positive note, which is how I like to end the episode. Every week, so this week the positive news story, em was found on Instagram, which Marion shared on her story by @gaytimes, and I'll have the link for that in the show notes. And the positive news story is that Scotland will become the first country in the world to add LGBTQ plus history to school curriculum. So that is super, super, super exciting and very incredible that Scotland is doing that. And I'm looking forward to teaching that. So that is our positive news story for this week.